1g balance shaft - Page 2

quote:

ORIGINAL: silvercoupe97

Who said anything about gaining any HP from removing the BS? The BS is obviously not needed as badly as you make it sound in your post. If it was and if it was a miracle shaft engineered by Mitsu, why is it a universally accepted process in the 4g63 community. Why don't you ever hear of owners motors falling apart? That BS is insignificant in my car and the removal was just as insignifcant. I feel a tad bit more vibration on the steering wheel and if I put my hand on the valve cover, I can feel the motor vibrate a tad bit more....not much more than what my buddies GS-T mind you.

measure it. its almost 5 times greater.

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That 3lb rotating mass serves no purpose other than to balance the motor in freq. It doesn't oil anything but it does slush oil around (makes me think of when my son takes a bath and he splashes around)...there's another variable that you didn't mention. That shaft is connected to a gear that is connected to a belt...ask yourself this, do you really need it?

you and I obviously differ.. I choose to have reliable, smooth power. You apparently want reliable, buzzy power. Do you need them? only if you wish to be able to have a product that equals the rest of the worlds in overall quality. try driving an older GM "quad four" without the shafts, and then one with them. The difference (as on a mitsu) is astounding in overall refinement.

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Neglect, I can buy that. What about the people who know better and don't neglect their cars? Are you telling me that I should leave my BS in? Too late, it's been without it for almost a year now and I still haven't had to retighten anything in or around the motor.

people who dont know better are the ones that damn the balance shafts from the beginning. Taking them out obviously wont reduce the life of the engine, but might reduce the life of the oil pump.

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I understand your point of view, but don't tell us that, that shaft with lobes is only designed to help. I see one pro to having it and three cons. If I wanted a silent, smooth, comfortable car....I wouldn't have bought what I have now, I most certainly would have bought a Caddy.

there really are no "cons". no added maintence, no added requirements.. only a reduction in amplitude of vibratino.

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If your only arguement for keeping the BS is so that the motor doesn't shake itself apart, then you need a caddy and stay away from DSMs. If you did this on your car and it felt uncomfortable, something happened, you either did it wrong or you had something else going on with your motor. If you haven't done this and you are only talking from riding in a car with one removed...there's just too many variables that's going on to assess that ALL DSMs are like the one you rode in.

the one? ive driven thousands of mitsus. I can feel the slightest incorrect noise, vibration, etc.

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The engineers also didn't engineer adjustable camber plates or similar, but yet whey you lower your car, you need them (brilliant Mitsubishi Engineers!).

thats because the car's not designed to be modified. Its not a race car, its a product designed for the masses. Lowering is another thing that I often take issue with, because 9 times of 10 the people that have done it have dramatically decreased their cars handling and ride quality.

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Oh and don't compare our cars to Neons, compare us to an SRT-4, an EVO, a Suby, but not a 2.4L N/A car built to be economical.

well, mitsu did use the 420a now... and its a buzzy engine.

quote:

ORIGINAL: racerx55

also now that ive got far into this engine, those godlike balance shafts you talk so well about, both of them the bearings are wpun or gone, the rear one has 1/4" of slop in all directions,- thats what trashed this motor, 1 less 1g 6 bolt now.. some great thing to keep there genious, so im just gonna get another motor and get rid of those worthless heaps of **** in it

if you maintain your car that wont happen. Got 212000 out of my eclipse before I sold it. And its still going.

built a 385 WHEEL horsepower 1st gen, and it still had the balance shafts in it. and its still running.
they dont fail any more often than any internal engine componant.

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the technology only has benefits, which is why EVERY car maker on the planet uses them in some of their products.
I can tell standing next to a mitsu wether its had its balance shafts removed, and to me it signifies a butchering of what was a nice product.
I guess when I spend 20-30 grand on a new car, I dont want it to vibrate like a ****ty 30 year old Plymouth.

yet the 30 year old plymouths still run through years of neglect and severe abuse, but new cars with all this technology that are well maintained are lucky to live the first 6 months without something self-destructing on them
i'm not dumb enough to spend $30,000 on a car, new or not

All right dirst off you folks need to CHILL before I'm forced to lock this thread.

Now first off (Again I've skimmed the last half of the thread but have a bit to say already). Silent Shafts HAEV been around for a while and quite a few companies use them. I have a car that used to have them. I JUST eliminated them. Previously I was getting low oil pressure and my car was running like crap. I'm sure partially due to the oil pump but I'm not for certain it didn't appear to be in bad shape. Now for those of you wishing to continue arguing about WTF Silent Shafts DO feel free to read this link on engine balance. This will straighten your views on the shafts up nicely.

NOW after reading THAT little bit of info, bear in mine that a PROPERLY tuned vehicle running correctly will NOT vibrate enough to shake it apart. And in my opinion I feel that the balancing done by those shafts will actually assist in MASKING a badly tuned engine.

Basically I agree with silver in the fact that there is NO harm done by NOT having them in. I also believe that if you want a smooth ride then keep 'em. If you want to know how your engine is running and have forewarning on problems lose them. I have mine removed from the G54B that I have in my 'Quest. I'm still in the middle of the work so I don't know how she runs yet but soon I will. New water pump should be here Sometime after Tuesday and by then I'mm likely have most everything else installed and ready to go.

Now keep things civil and no bashing. Thanks.

also then why do race shops take them out? i got my shortblock from buschur and guess what, theyre not in there.

quote:

ORIGINAL: 93eclipsegsx

also then why do race shops take them out? i got my shortblock from buschur and guess what, theyre not in there.

'cause its cheaper, and the average consumer has been convinced its somehow "better" to have them removed.

385 wheel HP with balance shafts installed should be enough to prove at the very least they have no "cons".

Well quite frankly it's an extra 15 lbs of metal and rotating mass that I don't need on my engine. You say that there's nothing wrong with having them BUT if that were the case then we should all leave our AC on our cars too right? It doesn't hurt the engine. But it's a LEECH. SOMETHING turns those balance shafts they don't spin magically. Quite frankly I don't need 'em I'd rather have the engine vibe tell me when something isn't quite right.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Manybrews

'cause its cheaper, and the average consumer has been convinced its somehow "better" to have them removed.

385 wheel HP with balance shafts installed should be enough to prove at the very least they have no "cons".

To keep my post clean.....

Just so you know, it's cheaper to leave the BS in because you don't have to add the stub or plug+labor....that's that view. The other view is the cost of a rebuilt motor over the cost of a balance shaft kit.
That's your experience with your car and that's great that you made that with your car. Did you have a 6 bolt or 7 bolt, 1G or 2G, dyno sheet, mods?
385whp is really good and is something to brag about. I would not want to think about making power and having a BS rod break from stress for having power. Did you also have the stock exhaust? To each their own.
I don't really understand your point in keeping the BS since it can be a timing belt breaker (Racer already provided that proof) on top of the other things listed in the links I provided.
My experience with my BS gone is..well, nothing really. My car does not vibrate because of the BS delete. At idle is the only time anything vibrates and that's felt at the steering wheel. I don't even notice it.
These DSM cars are capable of making serious power, most people that are looking to make power is going to want to remove the BS because that's one less thing to break........that is the point of removing them in the first place. Folks making power out of these motors don't concern themselves with how smooth their car is because smooth does not equate to power. I'm guessing that you feel that cams aren't necessary either, right? Well, cams will make a motor lope and that balance shaft will not smooth out the motor after they have been installed. Folks also remove their A/C and power steering, how do you feel about that?
I see your point, your point is that the BS is not necessary to remove. My point is, why risk it? Every car is different. My money isn't going to be thrown away by some silly shaft that only does it's job at idle. My exhaust vibrates my car more than anything, no it's not loud, it's a deep tone and that's what makes my car vibrate. As a daily driver, it suits me just fine just as yours did at the time. Besides, I would rather spend $45 on the balance shaft eliminator kit than $500, $1000, $1500, etc. on a rebuilt motor, especially if someone just spent $1500+ on a prebuilt motor...how about you?

Note, all of what I typed is to be read in a nice tone

If you need any more proof on what we're getting at take a good look at the pics in THIS linky!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanguinius

Well quite frankly it's an extra 15 lbs of metal and rotating mass that I don't need on my engine.

actually, its 3-3.5 pounds. about 1.6-1.7 per shaft.

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You say that there's nothing wrong with having them BUT if that were the case then we should all leave our AC on our cars too right?

well, most of us do. If you're running a 100 percent race car, thats different. I certainly dont know anyone who removes ac for no reason.

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It doesn't hurt the engine. But it's a LEECH. SOMETHING turns those balance shafts they don't spin magically.

sure.. but there is no "load" on them other than their own weight. there is nothing resisting them but the friction of the oil, which is insignificant. and AC doesnt have any real HP loss if its "off".

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Quite frankly I don't need 'em I'd rather have the engine vibe tell me when something isn't quite right.

Thats odd to me.. As i prefer quiet, smooth power. the main reason for their invention by mitsu was to dull an inline 4s natural inbalance. But to each their own.

quote:

ORIGINAL: silvercoupe97


Just so you know, it's cheaper to leave the BS in because you don't have to add the stub or plug+labor....that's that view. The other view is the cost of a rebuilt motor over the cost of a balance shaft kit.

well, the thing is that they wouldnt need to be replaced during a rebuild. they seldom suffer any type of wear whatsoever, unless neglected. At which time you will have other issues with the motor.

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That's your experience with your car and that's great that you made that with your car. Did you have a 6 bolt or 7 bolt, 1G or 2G, dyno sheet, mods?
385whp is really good and is something to brag about. I would not want to think about making power and having a BS rod break from stress for having power. Did you also have the stock exhaust? To each their own.

a balance shaft wont "break" unless something horrible happens to an engine such as oil starvation. At which time the engine is already trash anyway.

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I don't really understand your point in keeping the BS since it can be a timing belt breaker (Racer already provided that proof) on top of the other things listed in the links I provided.
My experience with my BS gone is..well, nothing really. My car does not vibrate because of the BS delete. At idle is the only time anything vibrates and that's felt at the steering wheel. I don't even notice it.

once again, they only break if neglected... meaning either someone hasnt changed his timing belt at correct intervals, or something to that extent. incidently, the balance belt usually lasts much longer than the main belt.

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These DSM cars are capable of making serious power, most people that are looking to make power is going to want to remove the BS because that's one less thing to break........that is the point of removing them in the first place. Folks making power out of these motors don't concern themselves with how smooth their car is because smooth does not equate to power. I'm guessing that you feel that cams aren't necessary either, right? Well, cams will make a motor lope and that balance shaft will not smooth out the motor after they have been installed. Folks also remove their A/C and power steering, how do you feel about that?

on a race only car, remove whatever you want. the thing is, 99 percent of the cars here will spend more time sitting in traffic than racing. And to that extent its a waste to throw away well engineered items like PS, AC, and balance shafts, all of which make sitting in traffic a LOT nicer.

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I see your point, your point is that the BS is not necessary to remove. My point is, why risk it? Every car is different. My money isn't going to be thrown away by some silly shaft that only does it's job at idle.

the balance shafts have no effect at idle. they come into play at higher RPMs. You wont notice them at idle at all, as there isnt enough inertia from the crank, pistons, or balance shafts to toss the engine about much at all. Its at the higher frequencies and amplitudes that the balance shafts come into play.

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My exhaust vibrates my car more than anything, no it's not loud, it's a deep tone and that's what makes my car vibrate. As a daily driver, it suits me just fine just as yours did at the time. Besides, I would rather spend $45 on the balance shaft eliminator kit than $500, $1000, $1500, etc. on a rebuilt motor, especially if someone just spent $1500+ on a prebuilt motor...how about you?

you're talking about a situation in which something has already suffered a catastrophic failure. Im talking about situations in which people just yank them out without reason (although I never assemble an engine without them, regardless of what has happened unless directly asked to not do so).

quote:


Note, all of what I typed is to be read in a nice tone

as is everything I wrote. Voicing my opinion is not to be taken as a "challenge", nor has it ever been.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanguinius

If you need any more proof on what we're getting at take a good look at the pics in THIS linky!

dude..
thats a 23 year old 2.6 liter conquest. Not the same deal. the guides on the small chain wear, and people dont adjust them as theyre suppost to (there is a small cover on the front that can be removed so that the small chain can be correctly tensioned).
if thats not done , the small chain tears the teeth off the sprocket, as in that link. its not from balance shafts, its from lack of correct tension on the chain.

Actually that chain WAS at the correct tension. That guy just recent redid the majority of the engine. I know that's a 2.6L Starion engine as I myself drive a Conquest (Or I will once I finish putting it back together again which isn't going to happen till I finish the engine bay painting after the blasted noreaster flows through here). But now you understand my disdain and general hatred for the evil balance shafts. I'll never have to worry about a maladjusted guide or a weak link again.

listen to the brewmaster, the engine likes the BS and you will not gain any performance. DO NOT listen to the crap on ebay. There is a reason they are there.

then why do race shops take them out.

quote:

ORIGINAL: wb12859

listen to the brewmaster, the engine likes the BS and you will not gain any performance. DO NOT listen to the crap on ebay. There is a reason they are there.

What does ebay have to do with any of this?

less moving parts for racing, two less things to deal with when you rebuild after so many races. When it comes to street cars I wouldn't sacrafice the longitivity of the engine.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Manybrews

the thing is that they wouldnt need to be replaced during a rebuild. they seldom suffer any type of wear whatsoever, unless neglected. At which time you will have other issues with the motor.

I take this as a "perfect world" scenerio. There are too many variables to be accounted for.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Manybrews
a balance shaft wont "break" unless something horrible happens to an engine such as oil starvation. At which time the engine is already trash anyway.

..another "perfect world" scenerio.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Manybrews
once again, they only break if neglected... meaning either someone hasnt changed his timing belt at correct intervals, or something to that extent. incidently, the balance belt usually lasts much longer than the main belt.

ditto

quote:

ORIGINAL: Manybrews
on a race only car, remove whatever you want. the thing is, 99 percent of the cars here will spend more time sitting in traffic than racing. And to that extent its a waste to throw away well engineered items like PS, AC, and balance shafts, all of which make sitting in traffic a LOT nicer.

I agree with this.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Manybrews
the balance shafts have no effect at idle. they come into play at higher RPMs. You wont notice them at idle at all, as there isnt enough inertia from the crank, pistons, or balance shafts to toss the engine about much at all. Its at the higher frequencies and amplitudes that the balance shafts come into play.

you contradict yourself on this, since you just added that the BS can make sitting in traffic a LOT nicer, also, at WOT, my car is very smooth and is quiet (up front, not around back, lol).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Manybrews
you're talking about a situation in which something has already suffered a catastrophic failure. Im talking about situations in which people just yank them out without reason (although I never assemble an engine without them, regardless of what has happened unless directly asked to not do so).

If that catatastrophic failure happens to have been caused by the BS, by one of the non-perfect world variables, I would be very ticked off to not have spent the $45 for preventive maintenaince procedures. The motor doesn't "need" it to run, the motor won't be hurt to not have it. In life there will always be "what if" questions. I will always err on the side of caution, as you trust what someone tells you and call it a day (nothing wrong with that).
I think you miss what most people are doing when they remove the BS. It's all about preventive maintenaince, you have to understand that when someone spends the money to have a motor "ready" for higher boost, they aren't going to leave that BS, the motor can be balanced to keep the vibration down, if that's such an issue for built motor owners. How do you know that the BS belt that was bought wasn't built on a Friday, at 4:30pm? If you're old enough or have heard this before, you know what I'm saying.
As you may already know, engineers are only people, they make mistakes, bad decisions, wrong decisions, and cover up previous mistakes. The people that chose to remove their BS a long time ago, didn't do it to break the motor, they did it to prevent having to spend more money than they have to when that catastrophic failure happens (I understand that the BS isn't what you are referring to).

These are the arguements of this procedure, so just like you, I take them with a grain of salt.

quote:

ORIGINAL: wb12859

less moving parts for racing, two less things to deal with when you rebuild after so many races. When it comes to street cars I wouldn't sacrafice the longitivity of the engine.

The first part, I agree, hands down.

The second part however; this is assuming that throughout the motor's lifespan that it will always be at stock form then, correct? If not, longitivity is already shortened as soon as you start it up, after that bigger turbo is put on or after the boost has been turned up.....

in theory, balance shafts prolong engine life, sorry, this isnt theory- this is earth
4 cylinders shake at certain RPMs, its their nature
a honda vibrates the dash so bad at idle you cant hardly read it, thats what they were trying to elimintae with the balance shaft in a mitsu engine, but its become a well known weak link to trash a perfectly good engine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanguinius

Actually that chain WAS at the correct tension. That guy just recent redid the majority of the engine. I know that's a 2.6L Starion engine as I myself drive a Conquest (Or I will once I finish putting it back together again which isn't going to happen till I finish the engine bay painting after the blasted noreaster flows through here). But now you understand my disdain and general hatred for the evil balance shafts. I'll never have to worry about a maladjusted guide or a weak link again.

theres the issue... he just "redid" the majority of the engine. It was done incorrectly, garanteed.

quote:

ORIGINAL: silvercoupe97



you contradict yourself on this, since you just added that the BS can make sitting in traffic a LOT nicer, also, at WOT, my car is very smooth and is quiet (up front, not around back, lol).

lets not be silly here.. I obviously was speaking in generalities. You probably will have to rev your engine eventually, even sitting in traffic.

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If that catatastrophic failure happens to have been caused by the BS, by one of the non-perfect world variables, I would be very ticked off to not have spent the $45 for preventive maintenaince procedures. The motor doesn't "need" it to run, the motor won't be hurt to not have it. In life there will always be "what if" questions. I will always err on the side of caution, as you trust what someone tells you and call it a day (nothing wrong with that).

now thats just goofy to me. removing things because they "might" fail? may as well remove the wipers, door locks, all accesories, etc.
besides, balance shafts don't just fail. Almost no part of an engine just "fails" on any car these days. I guarantee there's ALWAYS a reason for it, and its almost always neglect.
I do not feel sorry for people that break timing belts at 120K then blame "the damn balance shafts" when the maintenance schedual obviously calls for replacement before that.

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I think you miss what most people are doing when they remove the BS. It's all about preventive maintenaince, you have to understand that when someone spends the money to have a motor "ready" for higher boost, they aren't going to leave that BS, the motor can be balanced to keep the vibration down, if that's such an issue for built motor owners. How do you know that the BS belt that was bought wasn't built on a Friday, at 4:30pm? If you're old enough or have heard this before, you know what I'm saying.

removing them for racing is the only thing that would make sense to me. even then, removal isnt necessary. If you really like the added vibration, more power to you. I hate it. Most hate it, which is why everyone on the planet uses them. In this day and age, we dont need to compromise on something like that as the technology is there, proven, and reliable.

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As you may already know, engineers are only people, they make mistakes, bad decisions, wrong decisions, and cover up previous mistakes. The people that chose to remove their BS a long time ago, didn't do it to break the motor, they did it to prevent having to spend more money than they have to when that catastrophic failure happens (I understand that the BS isn't what you are referring to).

These are the arguements of this procedure, so just like you, I take them with a grain of salt.

hey, to each their own.

Exactly. To each his own. We can argue both ways until the world ends BUT in the end it'll all be up to personal preference. One may like the BS in there another may not. Me and silver obviously don't care for the BS's and have thus removed them. Many has decided he likes them and therefore continues to run them. There is no detrimental performance to having or not having them except weight and rotating mass. Those characteristics can again be argued all day long. Bottom line is that each person has to choose whether they want theirs in or not.

Opinions are fine but what I get defensive about is providing erroneous information. I don't remember who said it but someone said not having the BS installed would cause the engine to shake itself apart. This is in NO way true in even the SLIGHTEST. There is a reason the manufacturer provides a torque spec for EVERY bolt installed in a car's engine and transmission. Every nut, screw, bolt, and even hose clamps ALL have torque specs so that they WON'T be shaken off the engine. I would just like to lay that runor to rest right now before it goes any further.

Otherwise it's all preference in whether you keep them or not. Do research and see what differences there are between having them and not and make an educated decision on whether you would like to keep them or not. That's my advise right there. But if you DO keep them, since the belt has already failed once, CHECK THE BEARINGS. Since you'll be that deep in anyways might as well make sure they are 100%.

That was a great discussion on the BS and I hope anyone looking in can learn from both sides because, both sides has valid points IMO.
That was what Sang basically said...I just summerized, lol.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanguinius



Opinions are fine but what I get defensive about is providing erroneous information. I don't remember who said it but someone said not having the BS installed would cause the engine to shake itself apart. This is in NO way true in even the SLIGHTEST. There is a reason the manufacturer provides a torque spec for EVERY bolt installed in a car's engine and transmission. Every nut, screw, bolt, and even hose clamps ALL have torque specs so that they WON'T be shaken off the engine. I would just like to lay that runor to rest right now before it goes any further.

actually, thats not QUITE true. yes, the engine wont "shake itself apart". however, the loosening of bolts is quite frequent due too the massive amplitude increase. Ive seen it happen many times. Thats why chrysler uses threadlocker on their engines from the factory (the 420a is a very buzzy engine, and will shake itself loose if not threadlocked).
also, ive seen intake manifolds break from the increased vibration level.
will the entire thing unscrew itself into a hundred different pieces? Of course not. But the vibration level does cause things to fatigue prematurely.