Guys, I need some serious advice

Hi guys, I'm new to these forums so I'll try my best not to come across as an idiot...I need you guys to take me seriously, because I have a serious problem. I just bought a 1990 Mitsubishi Eclipse GST 2 weeks ago from my uncle. It's my first experience with a manual car. Please bear with me, this is a long story about my short history with the car.

One of the first things I did with the car is I had an audio system installed, which I previously had on my old car. It's a fancy high power head unit with a 1000W dual channel amp, and 2 12" subs. It quickly became apparent that the vehicle's stock electrical system could not handle the high demands of my audio system. It was stalling every time the engine idled, for example when I was at a red light. So, I installed a capacitor to help take some of the load off the battery. Somewhere along the way however, something caused the vehicle to have trouble starting. My amateur mind thought battery, alternator, sparkplugs, etc.. because the car was in great shape mechanically when I bought it. I believe I somehow killed the battery, possibly by the audio system draining it. The car died and would not start on its own when I stopped in front of a Shell gas station one day. My girlfriend came to jumpstart the car, but it would die shortly after disconnecting the jumper cables, or if I took my foot off the gas even for a second after starting to drive the car. So, I visited a nearby autozone and asked for prices on a good battery and alternator.

I bought a brand new, high quality Optimum battery and installed it with gold terminals and with terminal protectants, all materials I purchased and installed at the counsel of my new friends at Autozone. I installed it right outside my house, and to my surprise the car started, but the engine would abruptly die if the car had even a second to idle. I got it to autozone, by driving it around town with my foot constantly on the gas (not easy in a manual car, for a beginner, but I pulled it off). A few times, when slow drivers got in front of me or at red lights, the car died and I had to crank it up again and quickly put my foot on the gas. When I got to Autozone, one of their employees checked my car out and noticed that the throttle cable behind the engine was loose for whatever reason. To my amazement, after tightening it, I could feel more power in the car, and it idled like a charm. It no longer died when it idled. Awesome.

Now, having to drive my car around town with my foot constantly on the gas, and having to crank it up several times along the way, depleted my gas tank very quickly.

I was on the way to a gas station when I ran the car out of gas. This is where the nightmare begins.

I tried to crank the car a few times to no avail, because the gas meter showed that it still had one notch. I guess that indicator is off. I went to a shell gas station and borrowed a container and filled it with 1 gallon. After putting it in my car, well, it still didn't start.

So I went back to Autozone. I explained my situation to the man that had just helped me with my car on my last visit (the one who tightened my throttle cable). He told me I needed to "prime the fuel injectors" and such. I explained to him that I have minimal understanding when it comes to mechanics, so I didn't know what he was talking about. Then he had the *brilliant* idea of putting starter fluid through the intake system to "give the engine a little kick to help it start". He sold me a can of starting fluid and showed me a diagram of where the airfilter is located under the hood. He told me to unlatch it, remove the air filter, and spray a little fluid in there, and then to try cranking my engine again.

Off I went, in the passenger seat of my girlfriend's car. I did exactly what he told me, except that in my car everything is so jammed together under the hood that it was impossible to remove the air filter from inside its casing without disconnecting some of the tubes and other parts in close proximity. Having insufficient experience with this, I latched the cover back on and went back to Autozone and asked the man for advice again. He then decided to help me out by following me out to my car and seeing what he could do. Well, he quickly saw what my problem was, and found that it was impossible to manually remove the air filter from inside its cover. So he disconnected one of the hoses using my pliers and sprayed the starter fluid directly inside. Oh yeah, prior to this, he decided to also spray some fluid straight onto the filter itself without removing it. He told me to go inside my car and try cranking the engine. Again. Again. Again. I could not see how much starter fluid he actually used.

He must've had me crank the engine 10-15 or more times to no avail.

So he politely told me that he wished there was more he could do, I thanked him for trying, and then he left. He reccomended a couple shops.

I  called AAA and had them tow my car to one of those shops. It was this past saturday night when they picked it up so they didn't have a chance to work on it till Monday because they were closed Sunday.

Well, yesterday, I received a call from the mechanic at this shop, informing me that I have some serious internal engine damage, and most likely some damaged valves. He says that he couldn't even remove one of the sparkplugs, but that cylinder #2 has no compression, #3 has 30lbs, and #4 has 150. He said this amounted to $1,000 easily in repairs, if not more.

$1,000 in repairs after running a car out of gas? I felt devastated to hear this news, and I've come to my conclusions as to how this happened, but I don't want to influence yours. I'm speaking to him today to get a written statement on what his professional opinion is about the cause of this damage. Yesterday he told me over the phone what he thinks caused it, but I want your objective opinions and suggestions as far as a course of action.

Thanks a lot guys, and remember that your responses will be taken very seriously. I'm very stressed at the moment.

ok so he did a compression test but that doesnt tell you that the car has bad valves. It might be other stuff. Without taking apart the head its impossible to check valves. That is the most likely thing wrong. But it looks like only 2 and 3 may be the bads ones. If thats the case its possible that it could be the head gasket that went. Does your car throw a check engine light?
 
PS: I dont think running out of gas caused your engine to have no compression. I would ask him to do a leakdown test and see what he gets with that. At least then you can see if its the seals.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheEngineer

ok so he did a compression test but that doesnt tell you that the car has bad valves. It might be other stuff. Without taking apart the head its impossible to check valves. That is the most likely thing wrong. But it looks like only 2 and 3 may be the bads ones. If thats the case its possible that it could be the head gasket that went. Does your car throw a check engine light? I can't tell because the car won't start. I believe the lights do turn on at first whenever you turn the key, but the relevance can only be measured if they still stay on after the car starts, right?

PS: I dont think running out of gas caused your engine to have no compression. Of course not, because I'm sure this has happened to many people (running a car out of gas) and after priming the fuel injectors, usually that fixes the problem. However, what I'm trying to say is that I believe it's something the man from Autozone did. I know nothing about cars mechanically, so I would have never even thought of taking the steps he did mechanically. All I was doing was turning the key to try to crank the engine when he told me to. Remember my car is MFI, not a car with a carburetor. Do you get my gist? I would ask him to do a leakdown test and see what he gets with that. At least then you can see if its the seals. I may do that, thanks for the suggestion. However, I refuse to spend any more money until the mechanic at the shop can explain to me, based on his professional opinion, what could have caused this much damage to my car when it was running fine before it ran out of gas.

I'm off to see the mechanic right now, I will follow up.

Well for valves to be bent they would have had to hit the pistons and for that to happen the timing belt would have had to slip, so the other thing to look as it signs of wear on the belt or if it snapped. I still dont see anything that guy did at autozone make this big an impact on your car.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheEngineer

Well for valves to be bent they would have had to hit the pistons and for that to happen the timing belt would have had to slip, so the other thing to look as it signs of wear on the belt or if it snapped. The mechanic acknowledged two possibilities. One was precisely what you said. Bent valves as a result of a coincidence; the timing belt snapping the day I got my car to run. However, this car has not been driven anywhere near 60,000 miles since the valves, head and timing belt were replaced. Also, when I was driving it, I believe I was either in 1st or 2nd gear going certainly around 10-15 mph. I had just turned into a residential area off of a major street so I could turn around, because I was going the wrong way (I'm new to this area, just moved from out of state). The car simply came to a gradual stop, I looked at my gas meter, and it was pretty much on or near E. Now, if the timing belt had indeed snapped, what signs would indicate that? Would it make an audible noise? Seeing as it includes a belt snapping inside the engine, slapping several valves hard enough to bend them, etc, there was certainly no indication that such damage had occurred. What kinds of sounds should you expect to hear if the timing belt snaps during regular driving? I still dont see anything that guy did at autozone make this big an impact on your car. The 2nd possibility, the mechanic said, is that it had more to do with spraying starter fluid into a fuel-injected car (as opposed to a car with a carburetor). It sometimes works in small amounts with minimal damage to your car, however he explained to me that spraying it directly onto the air-filter is a no-no because it acts as a sponge, and absorbs the ether. When you try to crank your car, it sucks all of that through the intake at once. He says this will do damage. He says it can likely lead to severe engine damage such as broken valves, pistons, rods, etc, these are all the words of the professional I spoke to today. Further, the man from Autozone went on to spray the fluid into one of the hoses to the right of the air filter, presumably also leading to the intake. I could not see how much he used. Bottom line, the mechanic said, insight can only be gained by taking the engine apart to a degree and checking the valves. He says if he sees imprints on them and if they are bent, along with a broken timing belt, then it's clear to see why my car stopped running. However, if he sees black marks associated with extreme heating, then it's also a very clear conclusion to be drawn. Of course, his shop will certainly charge an arm and leg for all that labor+diagnostics, so I'm towing my vehicle back into my vicinities and having my uncle and his mechanic friends do the same work most likely for free. We may see a broken timing belt AND severe burns from the starter fluid. Bottom line is the man from Autozone followed the wrong procedure, even if it's ok to use a little bit of starting fluid. But typically you only need a little squirt, maybe 2 seconds or less directly into the intake, and that's it. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work, you don't simply keep trying to use this highly volatile and flammable substance, cranking the car 15 times. You also spray it directly into the intake, not onto the filter itself. Then you don't spray it into a nearby intake hose if that doesn't work. Again, I could not see how much he actually used, but I physically saw him spray it onto the filter and then into the hose, and I know he did it at least a few more times after that. So even if the timing belt did indeed snap, it's unlikely that my rpm was high enough to cause all this damage, since there were definitely zero audible indications of such damage. The starting fluid, in either case, did some kind of substantial damage.

I will, again, follow up on this situation once my uncle opens the engine and takes a look at the valves. The only two possible options are both unbelievably unlucky for me, not to mention devastating. I'm convinced the car simply ran out of gas and needed priming, but we'll see.

In retrospect, you said this yourself, and it's true. The only way we can get a better idea of what happened is to look directly at the valves:

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheEngineer

ok so he did a compression test but that doesnt tell you that the car has bad valves. It might be other stuff. Without taking apart the head its impossible to check valves. That is the most likely thing wrong. But it looks like only 2 and 3 may be the bads ones. If thats the case its possible that it could be the head gasket that went. Does your car throw a check engine light?

PS: I dont think running out of gas caused your engine to have no compression. Right, and according to the mechanic I spoke to, the misuse of starter fluid could have caused similar results. I would ask him to do a leakdown test and see what he gets with that. At least then you can see if its the seals.

Well here is what is throwing me off. First is that because your car ran out of gas one of the main reasons it may not start is that your fuel pump is gone. Its common that youll burn out the pump because you ran it dry. However the whole compression thing is really messing me up. It is totally unrelated. The only way i can see it being related is that the starter fluid caused you to burn up the valve seals or something. And like you said your car just died from no fuel. I dont see from what you said anything really pointing to the timing belt now. Maybe the mechanic messed up the compression test. Here is what i would have your uncle do:
 
1. Check the fuel pump and see if its functioning, or try replacing it.
2. Re-do the compression test to check the mechanics #'s. (just FYI standard compression is 164psi)
3. If they fail still put alittle oil in the cylinder and re-do the compression test to see if the #'s improve. If they do then its the piston rings. if they dont significantly improve then you need to do a leakdown test.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheEngineer

Well here is what is throwing me off. First is that because your car ran out of gas one of the main reasons it may not start is that your fuel pump is gone. Its common that youll burn out the pump because you ran it dry. Definitely sounds like the case. After this whole incident I did some reading about what happens when you run a car out of gas, and those sources also said that the fuel pump can fall prey to getting severely clogged by sediment and whatnot that sits in the bottom of the fuel tank. This is a 17 year old car, so you're probably right. My fuel filter needs work. However the whole compression thing is really messing me up. It is totally unrelated. The only way i can see it being related is that the starter fluid caused you to burn up the valve seals or something. Yeah that's why it was so shocking to hear about all this "internal engine damage". If indeed the car simply ran out of gas and the timing belt didn't give out (and I don't see why it should've), the only other possibility is that the misuse of starter fluid caused some serious heat damage to the valves. It sounds like that's a very likely scenario based on what procedures the man from Autozone followed (sraying it onto the air filter directly, also spraying it into one of the intake hoses, and simply using too much of it). And like you said your car just died from no fuel. I dont see from what you said anything really pointing to the timing belt now. Yeah, I'm crossing my fingers. Maybe the mechanic messed up the compression test. Here is what i would have your uncle do:

1. Check the fuel pump and see if its functioning, or try replacing it.
2. Re-do the compression test to check the mechanics #'s. (just FYI standard compression is 164psi)
3. If they fail still put alittle oil in the cylinder and re-do the compression test to see if the #'s improve. If they do then its the piston rings. if they dont significantly improve then you need to do a leakdown test.

Thanks for the suggestions on what to do next. I still need to get the car towed from the shop to my vicinities and this is most likely going to take a little time since my uncle lives about an hour and a half away. I appreciate your advice on this matter, and you sound like you know what you're talking about.

If the damage is entirely attributable to the misuse of starter fluid, I may be looking at taking some legal action. I'm waiting on the results of the valve inspection that my uncle's going to do (he's flying a good mechanic with 40 years under his belt up from Cali to check it out and work on some of his cars too) before I look for some free consultation.

good luck

New update.

Had an independent diagnosis from a certified mechanic today. He came over and looked at my car, removed a plastic cover from the top of my engine and checked the firing order, and I believe he made an adjustment. He removed the air filter completely and told me the airflow meter may be fried as a result of the Autozone guy spraying starter fluid directly onto the filter itself. He was able to get the engine running but even I could tell things weren't normal. The first time he got it running, before he adjusted the firing order, it was much more unstable and there was tremendous shaking and movement of the engine block. Then it still didn't sound normal after the adjustment because you could clearly hear a loud horrible wheezing, screeching sound they said was valve noise. Then all of a sudden, while it was running and he was manually revving the engine using the throttle cable, the engine died and they said a whizzing sound had indicated that "we just witnessed the timing belt on it's last leg" and he said the "teeth" must have been "worn out".

However, after I had them remove the 2 piece plastic cover so that we could take a look at the top part of the timing belt itself, we found that what my uncle said was indeed true. With less than 500 miles on it, the belt is intact, looks new, and there is no visible damage to, or any missing teeth on the underside of the belt. However, the mechanic said that based on his visual assessment of the timing marks, "car is out of time". I'm still not exactly sure what the extent of the damage is on the car but now we have eliminated timing belt snappage.

The questions I still want answered are this:

- Is my airflow meter damaged?
- Is my fuel pump damaged?
- How do my valves look? (This is costly because of the labor it takes to remove the head.)
- What parts are damaged beyond repair and require replacement?

These are questions I'm hoping one of you can help me with:

- Since the timing belt is intact but out of time, what conclusions can be drawn from the previous compression test in light of this new knowledge?
- How much should I expect to pay for a timing belt job, to have someone put the car back in time?
- How much should I expect to pay for someone to disassemble whatever needs to be removed in order for me to see the condition of the valves?

I'm more convinced now than ever that the starter fluid burned up the valves and that's what lead to the horrible compression test results.

Anyone care to drop their two cents? Is this car worth fixing?

Well you ask if the car is worth fixing, that all depends on how much you bought it for and in the end, is a decision you gotta make. Sometimes it good to have it checked out, just to see what you're dealing with.
And secondly yes spraying starter fluid on the air filter itself can and most likely did damage your maf, but in some unlikely cases doesn't.
And as to how much it'll cost to get the timing belt re-done, all depends on how much the mechanic charges an hour and how good and fast he can do it. I would guesstimate that you should be ready to spend around 150 bucks to get the timing belt re-done.
Also is the CEL (check engine light) on? If so what codes does it throw out? Cuz that would help diagnosing it a whole lot, but since you didn't mention it, i doubt it did.
And when he said the teeth are worn out he didn't mean on the timing belt, he meant on the pulleys.
All i can think of is, that it skipped a tooth. My buddies 99 eclipse was off by one tooth and didn't run right at all and would stall out sometimes.
And just to let you know, you prolly meant the starter fluid burnt up the valve SEALS, not the actual valves, that would be kinda weird,lol And in order to do that you'd have to rip the whole head off and the whole turbo, intake and exhaust manifold and everything around it. Which isn't all that hard but is one of those things that just takes time. And the cost for it all depends on the rate your mechanic charges and how good and fast he is. If i were you, and u wanna get an estimate at least. Call up local shops and ask how much it would be to get your valves inspected on your car. And they should be able to give you a rough estimate.
ANd if you have someone check the valves, you might as well not bother having someone redo the timing belt. Because he will put it back on the right way once he's done either fixing the car or done giving you the estimate

Dude seriously, it sounds like you are dealing with some shadey mo-fos. I would have a car friend look at it for you.
 
Honestly its almost impossible to tell without actually being there to tell you. I would make a post appealing to anyone in your area, im sure there are a few members on here what would come over and help you out.

quote:

ORIGINAL: lhausi2

Well you ask if the car is worth fixing, that all depends on how much you bought it for $2000 and I only got to drive it for a couple weeks before all this happened. and in the end, is a decision you gotta make. Sometimes it good to have it checked out, just to see what you're dealing with.
And secondly yes spraying starter fluid on the air filter itself can and most likely did damage your maf, Compression results: 1st cyclinder can't be checked because the sparkplug is unremovable, 2nd - 0 compression, 3rd - 30 lbs, 4th 150 lbs. Notice most amount of damage on the left, least damage on the right. Because the air intake would have brought the super-flammable ether into the cylinders in that order. Most of it would have burned up on the 1st, with only a little damage on the 4th (I should expect 180-200 lbs) Consistent with the theory that excessive starter fluid caused the damage, it wasn't the timing belt, so what else could have led to these compression results?, but in some unlikely cases doesn't.
And as to how much it'll cost to get the timing belt re-done, all depends on how much the mechanic charges an hour and how good and fast he can do it. I would guesstimate that you should be ready to spend around 150 bucks to get the timing belt re-done.
Also is the CEL (check engine light) on? Car doesn't run for the lights to come on. Can't get the engine running.  If so what codes does it throw out? Cuz that would help diagnosing it a whole lot I know it's a long story, but I've taken great care to be descriptive and specific enough with my details. In order to help diagnose the problem, someone would really need to follow the entire story starting with my first post. Of course you're not obligated to, that's why I have an attorney going through all the details very carefully with me (and she actually found these printed pages extremely helpful). But I think this is a great place to seek advice and I appreciate any insight you all have for me. Thanks a lot guys I mean it., but since you didn't mention it, i doubt it did.
And when he said the teeth are worn out he didn't mean on the timing belt, he meant on the pulleys. When he was manually revving the engine and all of a sudden it died and produced a "whirrrrrr" sound, he concluded that the timing belt had just snapped that we had just "witnessed it on it's last leg", as a result of jumping too many worn teeth on the timing belt itself. Of course, we found out he was completely wrong when we actually took a look at the belt. It looked like new. There was some slack on it, but it didn't feel terribly loose or anything like that. We discovered it's out of time, that the timing marks on the gears are off.
All i can think of is, that it skipped a tooth. I agree, and probably more than just one. It's out of time. My buddies 99 eclipse was off by one tooth and didn't run right at all and would stall out sometimes. I wonder if putting it back in time would drastically change things. Still, the compression results. Even with your buddy's car out of time, I doubt it affected his compression results.
And just to let you know, you prolly meant the starter fluid burnt up the valve SEALS, not the actual valves, that would be kinda weird,lol And in order to do that you'd have to rip the whole head off and the whole turbo, intake and exhaust manifold and everything around it. That's where I'm at right now. I need someone to remove the head and look at the valves. At which point I'm going to look at the damage, take some pictures for evidence, and then I need a certified mechanic to look at it and give me a written statement about whether or not the improper use of starter fluid caused this damage. The first shop I took it to, the mechanic told me, that if the head was removed (for a few hundred bucks of course), he'd be able to tell me if it was starter fluid that caused the damage. He said he'd look for burn marks on the valves, like black marks. He also said that improperly using starter fluid could cause enough internal damage to ruin valves, pistons, and rods because ether is like jet fuel and burns at a very high temperature. Which isn't all that hard but is one of those things that just takes time. I wish I had the knowledge to do it myself. I really do. And the cost for it all depends on the rate your mechanic charges and how good and fast he is. If i were you, and u wanna get an estimate at least. Call up local shops and ask how much it would be to get your valves inspected on your car. And they should be able to give you a rough estimate.
ANd if you have someone check the valves, you might as well not bother having someone redo the timing belt. Because he will put it back on the right way once he's done either fixing the car or done giving you the estimate. Woah, hold up there. Is this true? If I pay someone to just remove the head to inspect the valves, will they re-align the timing marks? Could I seriously expect them to do the timing belt job automatically without getting charged separately for that? Because that would be great. It would save my mom some money. She's paying to get the car fixed, but I'm fighting to get her money back at the same time. The man from autozone should have to pay for this damage.

Thanks a lot for your insight, it gave me some things to think about, especially that last part.

'preciate it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sebba

Dude seriously, it sounds like you are dealing with some shadey mo-fos That would be correct. I can't be dealing with any more shady people because this is a potential court case. Everything needs to be documented and unfortunately these bastards aren't living up to their certifications. So my uncle and I are watching everyone like hawks. You heard me say that even the people doing the independent diagnosis weren't trustworthy. They told me the timing belt was broken and it had nothing to do with the starter fluid. Turns out, we remove a little two piece plastic cover and the timing belt looks perfect. So he had to eat his words and I literally saw his eyes go wide. I would have a car friend look at it for you. I wish I had a friend with certification, that I could trust. Unfortunately I just moved up here from So Cal so I don't know anyone. I'm about 5 minutes away from OSU in Corvallis, Oregon.

Honestly its almost impossible to tell without actually being there to tell you. I would make a post appealing to anyone in your area, im sure there are a few members on here what would come over and help you out. I'll give that a shot if current efforts to get a mechanic of 40 years from California to fly up here fail. I trust him more than anyone because he's done countless jobs for my family and his prices are unrivaled. He also knows exactly what he's doing. But if I can't get him, of course I would appreciate anybody's help.

Thanks bro. And they are shadey mo-fos, for sure.

look ive been a mechanic for 14 years and i'm tring to understand what has been done and who did what. but if it run out of gas 1 gallon will not prime a fuel system you at least 7 gallons of gas and the car to be level it takes a little time and the fuel and fuelpump to be good and the car should start.the easy thing to do is replace the timing belt and tensor and go from there if it works great if not pull the head and send to the meachne shop to check it.starting fluid no good carb cleaner works better and burns better.we use it to start dead cars all time and no problems!