I WONDER....

Guys tell me what you think would win. You have a 95 Base 3000GT with A TT engine weighing in at 3250lbs with FWD and LSD, and the contender is a 95 VR4 with stock engine. Both are running the same level of boost with stock 9b's and making the same HP and torque. Who would win? (assuming the FWD TT has decent traction due to LSD, stiffened suspension and solid engine mounts). Would the FWD TT beat it due to a 500lb or so weight advantage or would the VR4 still beat it due to AWD? Keep in mind that although they have the same power at the engine the FWD TT would prob make a little more power on the dyno due to less drive train loss.

hmms interesting question....i would say its a drivers race...lightened sl-tt vs vr-4....

The SL for sure. The power to the wheels would be much more. A great majority of power is lost from the VR4s drivetrain. Not to mention the weight decreace of the SL.

guys its not an sl its a base which is even lighter.
i would have to say the vr-4 would take you off the line and you would follow it until u passed it when the vr-4 lost its top end due to the all wheel drive and extra weight. imo.

Im not even that sure about off the line either. The VR4s buck and jump... huge weight transfer... they dont get off the line incredibly well.

well what ever they do its probably better than spinning into a big white cloud of tire smoke. do vr-4's really buck off the line or was the driver not experienced in all wheel drive launching?

I've never experienced any bucking when I launch my car. Granted, I don't do it often because parts are expensive and the car is heavy, but it'll launch pretty hard.

It'll launch harder on the street than most cars and most certainly launch harder than a FWD version, enough to hold them off for the length of a quarter (all things being equal other than AWD)

with stock boost there will be no massive wheelspin

300 hp...in a fwd car....i see wheel spin happening.

regardless... the base would kill it.

Yea I mean I think it really does come down to weight. With and Quaife LSD, Solid Engine mounts and some good stiffening of the rear suspension you can counter act ALOT of the wheel spin so I think that the race would be alright from a traction stand point. But when your are talking 3800lbs vs 3250....I dunno I think the base could take it with some work. I mean heavily Turbo'd Civics with LSD, Suspension work etc can lay down 9's in the quarter. I just think that with FWD you will have to work harder to get the power to the road but I think that it can be done.

Bench racing is silly but, check the 3S Quicklist. Other than Chris Hill and JB Huang the rest of the list is on par with what a healthy AWD runs.

btw: Mr3000, once you add the LSD and all the turbo components, your car will not weigh 3250lbs anymore.

edit: Dynamic Racing top 10 list. Only one car in the top 10 is FWD. That should tell you something.

i used to have a 98 base and wheel spin happens even with 162hp,,,i now have a 99 vr-4 and ive never spun the wheels out of the launch..i dont race much but i do know that if u want to spin them u can but its a huge strain on the motor out of the launch... my vote goes the the vr-4 vs. the base w/ tt mods...another thing the vr-4 redlines 1000 rpms higher, and has a 6 speed which with my experince will influence the performance.... along with my vote i offer it with this piece of advise... just buy the vr-4

quote:

dont race much but i do know that if u want to spin them u can but its a huge strain on the motor out of the launch... my vote goes the the vr-4 vs. the base w/ tt mods...another thing the vr-4 redlines 1000 rpms higher, and has a 6 speed which with my experince will influence the performance.... along with my vote i offer it with this piece of advise... just buy the vr-4

I understand what you are saying but first off. The engine is not a DOHC. This is the VR4 engine we are talking about so the stuff about higher rev limiter doesn't apply. This will be a complete swap, engine and tranny. Also you said that I will just spin my tires. That isn't entirely true. If you do the suspension mods(mainly a stiffening of rear suspension), get solid engine mounts and throw in an LSD, a FWD can be coaxed to lay the power down to the road pretty well. I agree with you that AWD is better but I don't agree with your advice to get a VR4. Why? well 1)There are so many people out there who have the FWD version and think that it is worthless b/c it isn't the VR4 and I am out to prove that you can still OWN with the FWD. 2) It defeats the purpose of building a supercar out of a car that wasn't really very super in the first place.....yes it will cost money but at the end, you'll be able to say "I built this beast. I didn't get it this good from the factory". I would say to people who don't already have a 3/s to get a VR4 because it is less money to get it running fast BUT to the people who already have either a base or SL, keep it and make it fast.....that's just my 2 cents...Peace

Oh yea...keep in mind the SL TT's (which would weigh more than a base TT) with the stock 9b's are running basically the same times as a stock VR4 in the quarter. To 60, yea the VR4 will prob beat it due to traction, but after that I think it is pretty much neck and neck....please keep posting with your individual opinions....

Not ANOTHER bench racing thread

i understand what you are saying about just buying a vr-4. its much easier than building a car and much less head ache. but if everyone did this, there would be no more left to buy or go around. i think its cool that people have that much respect for their cars that they want it to be better than something way better off the lot. i think thats cool. any one can buy a fast car but to build your own is something thats pretty awesome. imo.

Good post 94, that's exactly what i am saying. Building a car to be unique and one of a kind is priceless.

quote:

that's exactly what i am saying. Building a car to be unique and one of a kind is priceless.

Building up your own car brings more pride to ownership true.... But if you want to know which one is faster- the only way you'll really know is to race one with the other. Bench racing (racing online -ex= Car A modded with ABC+D vs Car B modded with C and D with a shot of N) will not give you any answers.

J

true start building that car so i can copy you mr. 3000. and then we'll take our chances against some vr-4's. haha.

Sure thing man...I think we could take 'em lol. Yea I decided what I am gonna run. I am going to do a custom port and polish with new cams, a TDO4 Kit, and DR500 turbos running at about 15-17psi. Just give me a couple months to save up some funds and then I will be starting. PEACE!

true...i'll start saving too. hopefully these cars don't blow up on us. haha.

They won't blow up on us because we aren't going to use the NA engines. I mean if we are going to do this thing we might as well do it right. So first I am getting a complete 6G72Twin Turbo engine swap. They can be had along with the Getrag tranny(used in the VR4's), ECU, Wiring Harness, Alternator, Starter, Distributor, Power Steering pump, All manifolds, All sensors etc for between $2K and 2.5K. Then I will get DR500 turbos from Dynamic Racing for $1300, Walbro or Supra Fuel Pump, TDO4 Kit(Stainless Steel Exhaust manifolds, Pre Cats and Downpipe) off of ebay for cheap hahaha, and a Front Mount Intercooler Setup. There have been people running mid to low 11's on DR500 turbos so I should be able to get somewhere in the 11 range with those babies. After that it will be pretty much just bolt ons for a little bit more power and to improve efficiency, durability etc. I mean I plan to get the Engine and FMIC setup with the TDO4 Kit first, then save up for the DR500 turbos later...maybe even after putting on some new rims lol. I dunno. I have a big list of everything that I am going to do to my car....infact I think I will post it....here:

TT SWAP PARTS AND OTHER PERFORMANCE PARTS:
1) JDM Engine, Harness and ECU, TT Tranny ~$2500
2) New Clutch to handle power ~500.00
3) DR500 Turbos ~ $1299.99
4) Solid Engine Mounts - $220
5) Aluminum Flywheel -$400.00
6) Headers Kit with down-pipe and Hi Flow cat with custom 3” exhaust - $600.00
7) TurboXS Blow Off Valve - Type H-RFL(3SX) -$169.95
8) CUSTOM Front Mount Intercooler (IC off of ebay with piping off of ebay) ~400.00
9) Blitz Dual Turbo Timer Digital Compact + Harness ~160.00
10)Walbro or Supra Fuel Pump(140.00)
11) Fuel Injectors 550cc ~ $350.00(or maybe 720cc)
12) Quaife LSD ~$1200.00
13) New Cam Gears ~$500.00
TOTAL TT Stuff  ~ $8500.00

BODY STUFF:
1) New Rims and Tires ~ $1000.00
2) Full 99 Conversion(Rear center Garnish & Sails, 99 Front End Conversion) ~ $2300.00
3) Viper Hood ~ $600.00
4) 99 Front Lip ~ $400.00
TOTAL BODY  ~ $4300.00

INTERIOR STUFF:
1) New Rearview mirror ~$24.00
2) UR- Short Throw Shifter ~$159.95
3) RH Door Handle Trim ~$8.00
4) Aluminum Defroster Vents ~$129.95
5) Racing Seats ~$500.00
TOTAL INTERIOR ~$825.00


Yea so I mean...it is a heck of alot of stuff and money that I will be putting into it but when you think about it....the truth is...I love the 3000GT. I would take it over any new car out there. I just don't like other cars as much as I like mine. So I mean I will be putting 14K into my car but guess what? It will be as if it were brand new again...better than brand new. Not only would it have killer looks but it would have killer performance to match. Yea if I just got a VR4 then I wouldn't have to worry about like 3-4Grand or so but I LOVE my car and I am never going to sell it. I am just going to build it up to where it needs to be. I mean it will take alot of work and money and alot of time but when you think about it 14K couldn't really even get you a civic hahaha so it is better for me to use it to build up my car than use it to try to get a new car. I am sure that when I do some of these things that I will be able to get them for alot cheaper prices than are advertised at the moment because I have alot of friends who can get parts and stuff mad cheap so yea I could end up saving upwards of 3Grand on this setup. All this stuff will prob take me about 5 years to get but 1 by 1 I will check things off when I get them done and sooner than I think, I'll be done. Well 94? You up to working this hard? hahaha. Alot of this stuff isn't needed but stuff I want so I mean feel free to use this as a rough guide or just as reference or something. Peace out!

Aside from benchracing. I have a question. Why swap in a motor from an AWD TT and convert it to FWD TT? That just doesn't make sense to me. You really wouldn't be saving yourself much work....it's not that much more to convert to AWD.

Stock for stock and in the real world, an AWD will leave the FWD from a dig, and a FWD will get ahead from a roll. Weight loss has it's advantage from a roll in a FWD and is a disadvantage from a dig, the rule above still applies. I used to get wheelspin if I was at around 3/4 throttle when my car was FWD and that was ~130-140whp. Again, stock for stock, the FWD won't catch up as fast as some of you might think if the AWD has a good deal of gap.

quote:

TT SWAP PARTS AND OTHER PERFORMANCE PARTS:
1) JDM Engine, Harness and ECU, TT Tranny ~$2500
2) New Clutch to handle power ~500.00
3) DR500 Turbos ~ $1299.99
4) Solid Engine Mounts - $220
5) Aluminum Flywheel -$400.00
6) Headers Kit with down-pipe and Hi Flow cat with custom 3” exhaust - $600.00
7) TurboXS Blow Off Valve - Type H-RFL(3SX) -$169.95
8) CUSTOM Front Mount Intercooler (IC off of ebay with piping off of ebay) ~400.00
9) Blitz Dual Turbo Timer Digital Compact + Harness ~160.00
10)Walbro or Supra Fuel Pump(140.00)
11) Fuel Injectors 550cc ~ $350.00(or maybe 720cc)
12) Quaife LSD ~$1200.00
13) New Cam Gears ~$500.00
TOTAL TT Stuff  ~ $8500.00

BODY STUFF:
1) New Rims and Tires ~ $1000.00
2) Full 99 Conversion(Rear center Garnish & Sails, 99 Front End Conversion) ~ $2300.00
3) Viper Hood ~ $600.00
4) 99 Front Lip ~ $400.00
TOTAL BODY  ~ $4300.00

INTERIOR STUFF:
1) New Rearview mirror ~$24.00
2) UR- Short Throw Shifter ~$159.95
3) RH Door Handle Trim ~$8.00
4) Aluminum Defroster Vents ~$129.95
5) Racing Seats ~$500.00
TOTAL INTERIOR ~$825.00

You'll see a few of these cars on Ebay selling for CHEAP halfway though the swap. Don't get too carried away and start this project until you have a master plan in effect. Otherwise you may find that is might be more than you bargained for and have to pull out halfway through. Go to a 3S only site and read more about it and really educate yourself before taking the plunge. Read about your states emission laws and requirements and find out if your potential swap and modifications will be affected. It's nice to dream about the swap and how it's going to end up, but you have to take a realistic approach. This is just my opinion.

J

well if i don't get completely sick of my car and have enough income to piss 14k away on a 13 maybe 15 or 16 year old car by the time i have the money, yeah i guess im up to massaging my 3000 into the 11's as you say. i really planned on keeping my car until i die when i bought it 2 years ago. i fell in love with it about 5 years ago when i would pass it going to school every day. you see i bought it from a private dealer who lived on some back road. i would intentionally take this back road just to see a glipse of this car. i swore that as soon as the for sale sticker went on there i would buy it. i saved up for it, working as a dish washer in a local resturant called the shady rest. yeah it was pretty shady since they woldn't even put me on the books.

well like i said, i swore i would buy it as soon as the for sale sticker went on and i held true to my word. the sticker was said to only have been on there for about 10 hours before i saw it and stopped in to tell them i would like to buy the car. i sent it to the mechanic and they said everything checked out good. i bought it 2 hours after that. it took the bank a while to get the money out and on a bank check. lol. i unfortunately didn't know how to drive a standard at the time and when my mom went to go teach me. she used to have a 86' mr2 which was also a standard. i imediately dropped the cluth and we went flying down the bak road at speeds that might have gotten my licence taken away. i thought this was the start of a perfect relationship.

as for the awd v.s fwd, no offense but we do realize that awd does entail more tracktion but wouldn't it be more embarrassing for a vr-4 to loose to a fwd tt than to a vr-4 clone. we just want to enhance our features not, "bastardize" something that we enjoy driving already. thanks for the input though. your avenger is awd ami correct? if it is, congrats on making it that way. good project. i've never seen something like that done before.