Stalls, Intermitient, Fuel Injection Relay Spastic

Hello,
I have a 90 eclipse 2.0 DOHC and recently it started stalling on me. The first time I was simply driving down the road(in the rain) and it stalled, when it stalled I could hear a semi steady clicking sound. I later identifed this as the fuel injection relay in the center console. Its done this several times on me and I cant figure out why. Here is all that I know;
The car has power and can be cranked; rarely does it restart immediately, a cooling down period of several minutes us usually needed.
I replaced the fuel filter hoping that may have been the issue, it wasnt.
During one of its episodes (in my driveway prior to replacing the fuel filter) I manually(physically) closed the contacts in the relay while trying to start the vehicle, it would sputter but would not run.

It almost seems as if the fuel pump is going out and some sensor is detecting the low pressure and shutting the fuel injection system down. Is that possible? I havent found a sensor for that particular function? Things are tight and I hate to spend the money on a fuel pump and have it wind up being the computer or something else. Since this is my commute card I need to get it running ASAP. Any ideas?

Thanks
Richard

hmmmm...tough one....check your fuel mix, had a experience before just like that. soon i, found out its the fuel mix. some screw head mix my fuel w/ oil and sugar.

Did you ever replace the capacitors in the ECU? 90 to 94 eclipses are NOTORIOUS for having the capacitors leak on to the circuit board causing lots of problems. Eventually you will start having things like your Idle control motor making the same sounds as your pump relay, and there is a laundry list of symptoms that go along with this ECU problem eventually. Just something to think about during your diagnosis. I have had 3 1g eclipses, ALL of them had this problem. It is like magic when you spend 10 minutes working and have 10 malfunctions clear up just that fast.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FireDoc

Did you ever replace the capacitors in the ECU? 90 to 94 eclipses are NOTORIOUS for having the capacitors leak on to the circuit board causing lots of problems. Eventually you will start having things like your Idle control motor making the same sounds as your pump relay, and there is a laundry list of symptoms that go along with this ECU problem eventually. Just something to think about during your diagnosis. I have had 3 1g eclipses, ALL of them had this problem. It is like magic when you spend 10 minutes working and have 10 malfunctions clear up just that fast.

Simply replace the capcitors?? Are we talking unsolder them and all?

Yes. But if the capacitors leaked, the ECU is ruined. Once you start having problems, It's too late. You will have to replace it. Wether it is used or not makes no difference as long as you can prevent the problem from occuring.

An electronics shop can repair them for cheap. Capacitors are about 30 cents a piece.

Thanks for the tip. I'm at the point where I am thinking its either the ECU or the Transistor Ignition Module. One thing I thought of was I noticed that one of the times it stalled (on the freeway) I was deperate so I tried some starting fluid. The engine ran(poorly) but while it was running there was no tachometer reading. Thats leaning me to thinking there was no tach signal and since the ECU is fed its tach signal off the same line if the ECU istn getting a tach signal it wont run the fuel injection. If one of the two transistors in the unit is bad then that would mean two plug wires wont fire and would explain why when I manually physically closed the fuel injection relay contacts that it sputtered but wouldnt start(running on two cylinders is apt to do that I'd guess.

Anyone else think I may be on the right track?

Sounds logical. I am out of my element when it comes to electronics, but that would be my take on the situation. Is there a way to have your module tested? When they fail, is it possible to have a non-moving part such as this be intermittent, or would it just quit? Just some questions I would ask myself.

I'm no electronics master and I tend to look for simple things first. Juat to clarify, in your original post did you mean the "fuel injection relay" or the fuel pump relay?

Firedoc; Its possible to test it but since the problem is so intermitient(sp) it would be hard to trust. The only thing I can think of is that when the module gets sufficiently hot it was failing. I ran that car for 4.5 hours today and drove it all over the place and the problem didnt resurface. The only thing I have done to it was to remove the cover from the spark plug valley (wante to be able to pull a plug wire and see evidence of spark if it failed) and I grabbed ahold of the connecto for the ignotion transistor assebly to try to pull it off. Didnt succeed but gave up since I wasnt going to pull it to test untill the failure occured which it never did.

pc; the Fuel injection relay. Its mounted on the support brace near the dashboard end of the center console. Its a double relay in one case. According to what I've read and been able to test myself one relay when on runs the fuel pump. The other relay powers the fuel injection in some manner(the schematics I have arent complete).

I had a ranger with an intermittent problem similar to this once. You did do the wiggle-test right? sometimes saves alot of $

Do you think it could be the fuel pump? It is a 1990 model.

quote:

ORIGINAL: pc

Do you think it could be the fuel pump? It is a 1990 model.

I'd think it would be more consistient. But then again we have had the car 6 years and havent replaced it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FireDoc

I had a ranger with an intermittent problem similar to this once. You did do the wiggle-test right? sometimes saves alot of $

Yep I did the wiggle test before the 4.5 hour run the other day when the failure didnt manifest so possibly thats all it took. I have my fingers crossed, tomorrow I drive it to work.

Let us know! I won't be able to reply until thursday, but I'll watch for it then.

I found this little info on http://www.asaaz.org/canyonauto/techtips.htm#transient AC voltage
Quote:
Looking for the "Real" Problem

..... There are times we "know" what is causing a certain drivability problem, but we get tunnel vision and sidetracked, forgetting to look at the whole picture. I'm here to tell you I spun my wheels for far too many days looking for the "real" problem, all the while knowing there was a problem in the base function of the car. A couple of years ago I had warned about Taurus alternators causing a stalling condition; too much AC voltage would cause the ECA to turn the injectors off under certain conditions. This is not limited to Taurus' but it was a pattern failure with them.
..... I had a '86 Taurus 3.0, with the customer complaint of intermittent stalling. Sometimes it would occur frequently during a drive cycle, sometimes it would be days between episodes. I performed all the basic tests, including testing alternator output and voltage drops. My first mistake was thinking the symptoms didn't match what I had written about earlier, therefore it can't be too much AC voltage from the alternator (in which the car had too much AC voltage). Not only was this my first mistake, it became the BIG mistake. I spent time testing everything. EVERYTHING - twice. I checked for TSBs, went on the iATN, and called Identifix. I called gurus from all over. I hate to put parts on a car to "see" if that part fixed it but I had resorted to replacing parts. My problem was I didn't want to replace the alternator until I had fixed whatever was causing the stalling and I didn't want to spend here money until I had the stalling stropped. I was taught no matter what else you found wrong with a car, no matter what else you repaired, fix the customer's original complaint. Putting an alternator (even thought it was bad) would not fix the stalling. HAH! The alternator fixed the stalling.
..... What finally convinced me I had to replace the alternator was looking at PIP, TPS, and MAP -- there was too much hash in the "ON" voltage. Also, remember to look at the AC signal at the engine, not the battery. Don't forget the basic rule: Make certain the base engine, or base car functions, are correct before diving into the exotic repairs.
End of Quote

Might be a quick and cheap check before looking for other problems??

PC,

You know its funny you should mention this. I had the alternator die off on me in early May shortly before my other issues arose. I had it replaced by Firestone (happened while I was at work and they are like 1 mile away). I never stopped to think they may be part of the problem because..... Tuesday as I am driving to work I noticed my dash lights were dimmer than usual, I grabbed the dimmer knob and it was all the way up. I pulled over and checked my voltage, 8.4 volts and falling. Not charging, turned around headed home. Once there I checked and the fusible link is fine, the voltage TO the Voltage Regulator and fields is fine. So I am taking it back friday to have the alternator re-replaced. Perhaps this is the entire source of my woes?

Well in the ongoing drama, I have now had the alternator replaced(supposedly it failed due to oil contamination). Things seemed well last week but temperatures were very mild in the 70's and low 80's. On friday we had a high 90's day and the car stalled out again. After 40 mins sitting roadside the car evidently cooled down enough that it was able to restart and made it the remaining way home. Didnt mess with it all weekend. Then today I took it to work. Driving through heavy rain it started sputtering and trying to stall very soon after I started driving, but only stalled completely once , it tried to stall a few more times but never did.

My question is this. Does anyone know, what component would cause this silly reaction to heavy rain? Here is a quick recap.

Alternator replaced in May. Replaced battery.
Car driven during heavy rain in June, stalled for first time ever, 3 times in one short trip.
Replaced fuel filter. No appreciable change.
Alternator also replaced again.
In hot 85+ weather the car will stall and restart when its cooled down. When the car is trying to stall it sputters, I have come to find this is due to the fuel injection relay in the console kicking on and off or stuttering. This happense even when I keep the interior of the car and the ECM as cold as possible.
When stalled there appears to be no spark but I havent been able to test this too many times due to safety issues being under the hood on the roadside.
When rainy (heavy rain) water appears to be getting under the hood somewhere and causing the kick off to happen in a similar, but not totally the same fashion.
This happens regardless of what accessories or combination of are turned on.
When the car stalls, it will crank but will not fire.

I had the same problem here is what i did. First i had a bad cam pos sensor so i replacxed it made the sputter stop. than it would just die for no reason. i took it to the dealer and the relaced the crank pos sensor which was recalled as well and my air Idle control sensor was bad they replaced it took 1 month for me to get the car back. they still didnt fix the problem because they said that my head had somthing wrong with it and was causing the mapo sensore to shut the system down. so i went to pull the motor and also had a dead piston only pushing 100psi i pulled the whole motor and there it was piston 1 valve guides had been leaking oil and pluged the exhaust port up causing a shuttdown besides the dead piston so now i am getting the motor rebuilt beefed up and it will work like new got it in writing that the dealer will fix it for free if it dies after this.

I went back over your previous posts and found that you once used starting fluid to start it and noticed you had no tach or rpm indication. I found something I posted earlier on a different forum which may or may not help. It could be an easy test the next time you stall, unless it's on a highway. Seems heat does have an effect.

"I have a 92 Montero with a crank angle sensor (CAS) and a TDC sensor in the distributor cap. My manual states the CAS is powered from the engine control relay with 5V which produce pulse signals. My manual gives continuity tests from the four pin connector to the control relay harness connector. You'd need to know your wiring connections. The voltage test is for applied voltage from the CAS pin through a multimeter to ground with the CAS sensor connector disconnected and the ECU connected and the ignition switch on. Value 4.8 - 5.2V. IT DOES STATE THAT IF YOU GET A 0 RPM READING, I'M ASSUMING AT THE TACH. DURING CRANKING AND THE ENGINE WON'T START THE FAULT MAY BE THE CAS or a broken timing belt. This is assuming the coils primary current is ok. Not sure if this helps."

Look at the possible cause above when no start and 0 rpm reading. Course the broken timing belt is out of the question. Bad coils will also run bad when hot, stalling, sputtering, misfires. It is tough though trying to do diagnosis on a busy hwy. First be safe!!

Thanks guys, I am about at my witts end with this. Its so #@$@#$@! unpredictable. I just dont get it.

This week its been more of the same. Yesterday it ran 100% fine, no problems at all. This morning, it stalled 6 times on the way in, weather conditions are identical to yesterday. During stall episode #2 this morning I got out a can of 'canned air' like they use for cleaning computers etc. I sprayed it upside down (basically feezing jet) onto the transistor ignition pack and the coil to cool them. Got back in the car and no dice.

I'm about to give up and junk it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rahlquist

Thanks guys, I am about at my witts end with this. Its so #@$@#$@! unpredictable. I just dont get it.

This week its been more of the same. Yesterday it ran 100% fine, no problems at all. This morning, it stalled 6 times on the way in, weather conditions are identical to yesterday. During stall episode #2 this morning I got out a can of 'canned air' like they use for cleaning computers etc. I sprayed it upside down (basically feezing jet) onto the transistor ignition pack and the coil to cool them. Got back in the car and no dice.

I'm about to give up and junk it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: get435

I had the same problem here is what i did. First i had a bad cam pos sensor so i replacxed it made the sputter stop. than it would just die for no reason. i took it to the dealer and the relaced the crank pos sensor which was recalled as well and my air Idle control sensor was bad they replaced it took 1 month for me to get the car back. they still didnt fix the problem because they said that my head had somthing wrong with it and was causing the mapo sensore to shut the system down. so i went to pull the motor and also had a dead piston only pushing 100psi i pulled the whole motor and there it was piston 1 valve guides had been leaking oil and pluged the exhaust port up causing a shuttdown besides the dead piston so now i am getting the motor rebuilt beefed up and it will work like new got it in writing that the dealer will fix it for free if it dies after this.

In my opinon you sould take it somwhere like auto zone and see if it is pulling any error codes you be having the same problem i did.

quote:

ORIGINAL: get435

In my opinon you sould take it somwhere like auto zone and see if it is pulling any error codes you be having the same problem i did.

I'm going to try to pull the error codes this weekend. I did notice one thing this morning. I drive it about 2 miles to the gas station, it stalled. I got out and checked under the hood. The crankshaft sensor was HOT almost so hot I could barely keep my hand on it. The valve cover wasnt that hot yet since I had just started the car for the first time of the day. Do you know if these things are supposed to get that hot during normal operation?

Anyone? Does your crank position sensor get this hot? Specifically the metal cover in the center of the unit, not nessecarily the almuminum housing?

quote:

ORIGINAL: rahlquist

quote:

ORIGINAL: get435

In my opinon you sould take it somwhere like auto zone and see if it is pulling any error codes you be having the same problem i did.

I'm going to try to pull the error codes this weekend. I did notice one thing this morning. I drive it about 2 miles to the gas station, it stalled. I got out and checked under the hood. The crankshaft sensor was HOT almost so hot I could barely keep my hand on it. The valve cover wasnt that hot yet since I had just started the car for the first time of the day. Do you know if these things are supposed to get that hot during normal operation?

Anyone? Does your crank position sensor get this hot? Specifically the metal cover in the center of the unit, not nessecarily the almuminum housing?

To touch the crank postion sensor you have to get under the car is this sensor under the car or on the side of the head? if it is on the head it is the cam pos sensor not the crank and yes they both will get hot the crank sensor is put into the block so it will get as hot as the internals of the motor. as for Specifically the metal cover in the center of the unit, not nessecarily the almuminum housing? is this on the crank or cam pos sensor? if it is it was not ment to be there. or is the housing on the exhaust?

The crankshaft position sensor is indeed physically connected to the camshaft. Dunno why Mitubish named it thusly but its what they called it. The cover I am referring to is apparent in the image of one at;
http://www.rockauto.com/ref/BeckArnley/Detail.html?1800214.jpg

In the image above the cover is facing away from you in this image and is off to the right.

To clarify. On my 2.0L engine. When you open the hood, and stand on the passenger side looking at the engine the cam/crankshaft sensor is mounted to the side of the valve cover facing you, slightly to the firewall side of the valve cover and almost directly above the thermostat housing. When facing the unit from this position you will be staring directly at the metal cover I mentioned. In my case the metal cover is attached to the crank/cam position sensor with 'security screws' similar to the One-Way Slotted screw halfway down this page http://www.tamperproof.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=products

If you work you way through rockauto's menus https://www.rockauto.com/dbphp/mfr,A1+CARDONE and go to Misubishi/1990/Eclips GS/2.0L(non turbo)/Ignition/Crankshaft Position sensor you can find the image referenced above. Anyhow this is what I am starting to really suspect is my problem.

Its a shame something with so simple a function has got to be so horribly expensive! Because lets face it this position sensor is doing the job that Points would have done on a pre 70's car. A $5 set of points may have worn out more often but even an entire distributor wasnt as much as just this position sensor is.