Stalls, Intermitient, Fuel Injection Relay Spastic - Page 2

quote:

ORIGINAL: get435

To touch the crank postion sensor you have to get under the car is this sensor under the car or on the side of the head? if it is on the head it is the cam pos sensor not the crank and yes they both will get hot the crank sensor is put into the block so it will get as hot as the internals of the motor. as for Specifically the metal cover in the center of the unit, not nessecarily the almuminum housing? is this on the crank or cam pos sensor? if it is it was not ment to be there. or is the housing on the exhaust?

The crank sensor you mention and I have seen others mention, where is it located on the block? Near the alternator I think I saw in one thread. Whats its function, it isnt covered in my manual.

sorry i thought u were talking a 95 and up. my bad.

i will lokk in my hayns manuel on the 90.

the crank pos/angle sensor tells the motor where the crank is and how fast it is going thus contributing to the whole ignition system because it helps the computer control the motors spark many other things as well if it is bad it can cause the computer to think the car is dieing or dead and shuts down the system by an overload.

quote:

ORIGINAL: get435

the crank pos/angle sensor tells the motor where the crank is and how fast it is going thus contributing to the whole ignition system because it helps the computer control the motors spark many other things as well if it is bad it can cause the computer to think the car is dieing or dead and shuts down the system by an overload.

Thats odd in my Haynes I am pretty sure(its at home) that it says the Camshaft/Crankshaft sensors are combined. I'll check again later when I get home.

i know on a 95-99 gs they are seperate

This may help. Why don't you try pull yours off and test it. Then get a hair dryer and keep heating it to see if it fails when hot.
http://www.niehoff.com/techtips/18VARIABLE.html

get4536, yep according to my Haynes they are one and the same for a 90. Didnt have much time to tinker with it this weekend between rain and house projects.

Friday I got an analog meter and got the trouble codes. The only code displaying is 41, bad fuel injector. So I got out my digital meter and checked the injectors, all 4 read 15-16ohms. So that was a wash.

Saturday I did start it up at one point and it shortly after stalled. So I took the time to clean the contacts on the sensor, checked all my slid levels etc. Took it for a short drive and nothing adverse happened.

pc, thanks for the tip. Thats an awesome tip and link! I'm going to give it a shot and see what I can find out. I'll carry my DMM with me too so if it cr**s out and the location is safe I can test it during a failure.

Well I think I may really be onto something! If you recall from my first post I said that the car first displayed this symptom when it was raining. Well raining isnt quite the right words for how it was. It was more like a mini monsoon. At the time I figured the stall was due to the heavy rain (I actually pulled into a parking lot and waited out the storm because visibility was about 8 feet). The squall only lasted about 10 mins but it may have had a lasting effect. Ive found a couple other referenced to similar issues when washing engines; here http://www.dsm.org/archives/1997/09/19970922.txt/18.html which I found here http://members.shaw.ca/costall/1000Q/answers-minor.htm

quote:

Has anybody ever washed the engine on a [DSM]?
How do you wash the engine on a [DSM]?
What parts do I need to cover when washing the engine bay?
I washed the engine on my [DSM], and now it won't run! What's wrong? Is there a fix?
My [DSM] won't run! I washed the engine, and it started fine then! What's wrong? Is there a fix?

Brian Hood washes his engine all the time. See his description of how to do it here.

Aside from the cam/crankshaft angle sensor problem (described below), the process is simple: Spray everything with a cleaner, scrub as desired, and wash off. (Foaming cleaners might stick to parts and odd-to-reach places better.) Some people dry with compressed air or towels. For rubber and plastic parts, Armor All and similar products can be applied; for metal, Nevr-Dull or Mothers Metal Polish; and so forth. Tools like scrub brushes, Scotch pads, and the like can all be used.

With one exception, electrical components under the hood can be washed. Note that there are one or two that might suffer if blasted hard with a high-pressure stream of water. For this reason, most people recommend a simple garden hose, although a pressure washer can certainly be used if a little care is taken.

There is one important caveat to the advice above. Every year a few owners have problems immediately or shortly after washing their engine. All have damaged the camshaft angle sensor on the car. Without this sensor, the ECU cannot tell what position the crankshaft is in, and the engine cannot run. Some years have a crankshaft angle sensor instead; the effect is the same.

This makes the cam/crankshaft angle sensor the only real "must cover" part on the engine. A medium Ziploc bag or Saran Wrap is fine as long as the main body of the sensor stays dry.

The sensor in question is located next to the throttle body on top of the engine. It is round, about four inches in diameter, an inch thick, and grey in color. On turbo models, it is located immediately to the left of the words "16 Valve" on the top of the engine (see this picture for location).

If the sensor is covered the engine will probably start up fine right after washing. However, driving the car with a wet engine will create steam, which will get inside the crankshaft angle sensor housing. Once the car is shut off, the steam condenses into water, which will still wreck the sensor - even if it was covered prior to washing. Thus, some unlucky owners will find the car starts fine after cleaning, only to be "dead" the next morning.

So, to prevent crank angle sensor damage, therefore, there are TWO steps:

* cover the crankshaft sensor

and:

* wait until the engine is mostly dry before driving, or
* drive it for a while and then raise the hood to allow the steam to escape, or
* drive it long enough to get the engine completely dry.

Some owners are able to 'revive' their sensors, as Brian Powell was able to do here, but most are dead. Some Digesters have investigated if they can be repaired, but so far nobody has been able to do so. So don't get into a situation where you need to replace it.

So I am really starting to think this must be the problem. I cant imagine why such a mission critical sensor would be so delicate. Traditional hall effect distributor sensors usually work fine once they have dried out if they are negatively effected at all. Or a quick spray of WD 40 can take care of displacing the water. With that in mind I've given mine a sprtiz ;) If it seems to behave better or even normally then I will know I am on to something. If it werent for the blasted security screws on the cover I would simply remove it, disassemble, clean it and make sure its dry and replace the gasket on it. I may still give it a shot...

One other suggestion is if you suspect heat as a cause carry a bottle of water with you so that if it stalls then pour water on the sensor to cool it and see if it starts. Of course if it's water that's causing the problem as well, kinda puts you into a corner. A CO2 spray can will also cool the sensor.

Thanks PC. Yeah I thought about carrying some water but as you can see thats probably not a great idea. I did carry some 'canned air' to spot cool the Ignition Transistor unit a while back in case that was the problem, but I used it up. I guess I need to pick up another can. I've also contacted about 30 wrecking yards to see if I can pick one up 'on the cheap' so to speak. I hate to pay $400 for a part that may or may not be the actual problem. Since the computer readout was no help I'm even more leary.

Well I have found a local self service wrecking yard and they have 5 cars that are the right year and make. (3 90 Eclipse and 2 Plymouth Laser) which according to Standard Motor Products all use the same sensor.
Make Model Year
DODGE --- 2000 GTX 89
2000 GTX 89
EAGLE --- TALON 90
TALON 90
MITSUBISHI --- ECLIPSE 90
ECLIPSE 90
GALANT 89
GALANT 89
PLYMOUTH --- LASER 90
LASER 90

So hopefully I will find one when I go over there on my lunch. I've also got my father looking for one in California at his local wrecking yard.

No such luck all the 2.0L engines were gone only 1.8's left behind. Its a shame the Crankshaft position sensor off a 95 hyundai elantra wont work, its a mitsubishi engine and I bet they share a lot of the same parts.... :(

call the dealer they will have one it may cost you but who says you find one and it isn't burned up or close to it? parts like that i think should be new.

im showing $363 for the part new! here is an awsome website for any part fro just about any car. https://www.rockauto.com/dbphp/mfr,PROFORMANCE,Engine,5240,Long+Block

I buy new when it comes to electrical products whenever I can. But the cost on this item is just insane. I'm almost willing to bet (just not betting my ECU on it) that the Hyndai is 99% the same if not 100% other than some minor difference like a shift in the lingth of the cord etc. And the Hyundai is under $200..... That said I have found it chepaer at http://www.autosupplyco.com/index.htm where they have a remanfacturered unit for $248.55 which is getting closer to the area of sanity. Its amazing the pricing diversity. Advance Auto has one by beck arnley for $532!!! http://www.partsamerica.com/ProductDetail.aspx?mfrcode=BAR&mfrpartnumber=1800215&parttype=762&ptset=A

When you have a $300 difference in the price of the same part that tells me someone is enjoying a huge markup.

Well curiosity finally got the best of me. When I got home tonight I removed the unit from my eclipse and disassembled it. What I found was the crankshaft position sensor is a relatively simple optical encoder. It functions not entirely unlike http://computer.howstuffworks.com/mouse2.htm

The disc in this encoder is keyed in a certain pattern, its the reading of this pattern that tells the computer when to fire and when to activate the injectors. The difference in the slots in this disc are likely the only difference between the unit in the Eclipse and the Hyundai. I may just for giggles try one of the Hyundai ones swapping the encoder disc from my eclipse. Who knows may work, may blow the EFI right off my block. If it does then I have an ecuse to buy a long block for $525 which will include this stupid @#$@# sensor.

Interestingly enough the Elantra and Eclipse share the same replacement Coil. The coil on a 90 eclipse is the same one used on the 92-95 elantra. Get the feeling Mitsubish dumped some of their old stock off on Hyundai

Well crud. Got in the car this morning and it wouldnt start. So after work I came home and checked the voltage on the leads to the crank sensor. Nothing, nada. So I am going to guess the computer died. I took it out and opened it for giggles. The largeish capcitor on the center of the board has leaked nearly all the way to the edge of the connector block.... So now I am off to find a Califonia emissions computer.... Wont find that in a salvage yard in Georgia.

I have a 95 eclipse rs. And the same thing keeps happening to me....i just replaced spark plugs ...plug wires....charged battery everything. It cranks up rite away runs good. Then sumtimes in the midst of driving the car just cuts off. Usually cranks back up rite away with no problem. Ne clue wut it could be?

Well finally got a new computer for my 90 and everything seems fine now. I've driven it several days with no stalls. I sent my computer to http://www.ecmtogo.com/ after reading up on the process and the company. When I removed my computer I opened the case and was able to see where one of those cheap #@#$ capacitors had leaked all over the circuit board. Upon recieving my unit they took a look at it and declared the damage to extensive to repair. So they sent me a replacement and I put it in after testing the ICM as they require to keep your warranty. It was a costly repair but at least I didnt have to pay the $1000 the dealer wants for an ECM/ECU.