How do you get a dealer to check a TSB? (kinda long) (Full Version)

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How do you get a dealer to check a TSB? (kinda long)

  

Bojib -> How do you get a dealer to check a TSB? (kinda long) (7/29/2007 8:22:44 AM)

Recently, we've been having some trouble with our 2004 Endeavor.

At first we thought it was a fuel filter by the way it was acting.  It would act like it was not wanting to take gas going up some steep hills, or when we'd go to pass someone and have to get to near WOT.  Then we found out from calling around to parts houses and the dealership that the fuel filter shouldn't really be the problem.  Of course soon afterwards we found that to be true ourselves.

Those problems above only happened are fairly high RPM's, around 4k +.  Then one day, it decided it wasn't going to run at all.  It barely would go anywhere, just like it wasn't getting any fuel at all really.  Would cut and miss and buck and just wouldn't hardly move anywhere.  We managed to get it to our local mechanic (dealership is over an hours drive away, so it's kind of out of the question in such bad running conditions).  He hooked up his scantool and it gave a P0133 - Heated Oxygen Sensor Circuit Slow Response.  Since that's all the information it gave, didn't tell what O2 sensor it was or anything, he just reset the code and said next time it did it to bring it in and hopefully it will say which oxygen sensor is bad.

After resetting the code the thing run fine for a while, a couple weeks or so.  Then out of the blue it just started back again, hardly running at all, wouldn't hardly make it anywhere.  So we take it back to the mechanic.  It was late in the evening so he didn't look at it.  That night we get online and do some research, and found were some other people were having similar problems.  One person mentioned a TSB.  It's actually TSB-05-13-002.  The problems seemed very similar to ours, and it mentioned that the computer would probably need to be re-flashed.  Our car was at the mechanic still, and we wouldn't know much about it until the next day.

When we went to check on the car, he said this time the code came up as a P0171 - System Too Lean.  To him, he said it still seemed kind of like a bad fuel filter, except for the fact that once the codes were reset the car run fine again, which it did this time as well.  I had the TSB fresh in my memory, so I asked him about it, and he agreed that it made a lot of since to him.  That maybe we should take it to the dealership and get them to check it out.

So, we schedule an appointment at the nearest dealership with high hopes they would actually listen to us and give the problems a good thought.  We take it in, and mention the TSB on it, which they completely ignore.  They at first act as though they won't be able to do anything because the check engine light isn't on, like it's the only way a mechanic can work on any car problem these days, which was a good tip off that we weren't going to get anything done.  The car had a couple recalls that needed to be done anyway, so we left it there to get those fixed, and let them check out what they thought was wrong.  When we go back (over six hours before they could get anything done) they had a long list of stuff.  They wanted to change the MAF sensor, clean the air induction system (which isn't dirty), change all spark plugs, change all O2 sensors, change the timing belt, and service the transmission.  It seemed a little excessive, especially when they said it would be $900 to do all that.  They still wouldn't take the TSB in consideration.

The TSB by the way says this:
TSB-05-13-002
DATE: February, 2005 MODEL: See below SUBJECT: PCM REPROGRAMMING FOR SPARK KNOCK/ENGINE PINGING/MFI DTCS/DELAYED SHIFT This bulletin replaces TSB-04-13-004REV and TSB-04-23-001REV, to provide updated reprogramming information. PURPOSE Due to incorrect parameters in the Powertrain Control Module (PCM) software, some vehicles may experience one or more of the following:
^ Spark knock ^ Engine pinging
^ DTC P0171 (System Too Lean)
^ DTC P0300 (Cold Engine Misfire)
^ DTC P0133/P0153 (Heated Oxygen Sensor Circuit Slow Response)
^ Delayed shift engagement from Park to Reverse, or Park to Drive
To eliminate these conditions, reprogram the PCM as described in this bulletin.
AFFECTED VEHICLES 2004-05 Endeavor

Of those problems mentioned we've experience the pinging, the delayed shifting, and the two codes (P0133 and P0171).

I understand the dealership wants to make some money, but how do you get them to check the easy in your face options first, instead of trying to rip us a new one and change everything on the car first?    Basically, to me, $900 is a lot of money to come up with at once, especially when there is this other option that could fix it.  My point of view is, that if it is a computer problem, they could do $900 worth of damage, and the car still not run right afterwards, and we'd be right back again. 


So, how do you get someone at a dealership to listen to you over a problem such as this?  To at least take into consideration of the other things besides their guess and check philosophy?

Until then, the only thing I know to do is keep a code scanner in the car and reset it everytime it starts acting up. 

  
applewins -> RE: How do you get a dealer to check a TSB? (kinda long) (7/29/2007 4:10:18 PM)

Wow, I can sympathized with your dilemna. I had similar situation with a chvy dealer. My recommendation would be to work directly with the service manager. If that doesn't work, find a different dealer.
I'm on this site because I just purchased a used 2006 Endeavor. I pick it up Aug 1st. Getting rid of my Chevy Equinoxoius.

Manybrews -> RE: How do you get a dealer to check a TSB? (kinda long) (7/29/2007 4:25:42 PM)

first, the car is not running like that due to software issues.  There are software updates to be sure, but none of them will cause the car to run like youre complaining.
second, its NOT a clogged fuel filter.
find a better dealer if you want better service.


finally, it sounds to me like you should check your air filter.  If you're using an aftermarket filter, I wouldnt be surprised to see it sucked into the airflow meter.
the software update should be performed for free up to 8/80 (i think).  It takes about 30 minutes.  Although I highly recommend it, its probably not the reason your car is running badly as the issues mentioned in the TSB are virtually invisable to most drivers until a "check engine" light pops on.

also, most of those things recommended by the dealer SHOULD get done.  they are recommended maintenence from mitsu.  Break a timing belt and you wont be happy, etc.etc.

Bojib -> RE: How do you get a dealer to check a TSB? (kinda long) (7/29/2007 5:37:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Manybrews

first, the car is not running like that due to software issues.  There are software updates to be sure, but none of them will cause the car to run like youre complaining.
second, its NOT a clogged fuel filter.
find a better dealer if you want better service.


finally, it sounds to me like you should check your air filter.  If you're using an aftermarket filter, I wouldnt be surprised to see it sucked into the airflow meter.
the software update should be performed for free up to 8/80 (i think).  It takes about 30 minutes.  Although I highly recommend it, its probably not the reason your car is running badly as the issues mentioned in the TSB are virtually invisable to most drivers until a "check engine" light pops on.

also, most of those things recommended by the dealer SHOULD get done.  they are recommended maintenence from mitsu.  Break a timing belt and you wont be happy, etc.etc.



If it isn't the software issues making it run bad, then what would you think it would be?   We have had check engine lights as I mentioned in the original post, and had them checked by our local mechanic, since the dealership is over an hour away.  That's what made us start thinking of the TSB in the first place, was the bad running and the check engine lights that had came up.

In my research on the internet reading other peoples problems, they said the same things were happening, the same bad running etc., the same check engine lights, etc.  Once they had their computer re-programmed it helped them out and got things back to normal.

My problem is I can't get the dealer to even consider the TSB for a moment.  The next nearest one to us is over two hours away.  I can't afford to have them do recommended maintenence, only to have them get done with it and the dang thing still not run right.  That would be extremely pointless to me.  All the recommended maintenance in the world won't make a difference if they won't take care of what may be a computer problem.

I was just hoping someone may be able to help in how to get the dealer to see my side, but we will probably be better served by trading the car in to get something we can have worked on closer by.

Manybrews -> RE: How do you get a dealer to check a TSB? (kinda long) (7/30/2007 5:30:30 PM)

quote:


If it isn't the software issues making it run bad, then what would you think it would be?   We have had check engine lights as I mentioned in the original post, and had them checked by our local mechanic, since the dealership is over an hour away.  That's what made us start thinking of the TSB in the first place, was the bad running and the check engine lights that had came up.

In my research on the internet reading other peoples problems, they said the same things were happening, the same bad running etc., the same check engine lights, etc.  Once they had their computer re-programmed it helped them out and got things back to normal.

My problem is I can't get the dealer to even consider the TSB for a moment.  The next nearest one to us is over two hours away.  I can't afford to have them do recommended maintenence, only to have them get done with it and the dang thing still not run right.  That would be extremely pointless to me.  All the recommended maintenance in the world won't make a difference if they won't take care of what may be a computer problem.

I was just hoping someone may be able to help in how to get the dealer to see my side, but we will probably be better served by trading the car in to get something we can have worked on closer by.


ive already explained one possibility.  there are hundreds.
if you're having an issue with a dealer, try mitsu directly and explain that to them.  they will contact your local dealer, if not more.
software updates are done during routine maintenence at my dealer, and anytime there is an issue as you're complaining about.  They should easily do it for free if you're under warranty for it (as I stated should be 8/80).  However, as I said before the software updates are not so much for any drivability issues as they are for "check engine" lights.
Yes, they may lessen engine "pinging" and eliminate a slight delay into reverse, but the other issues are fairly invisible.  Only the PCM usually notices a problem.
Of course it should be done, but the previous software is not responsable for a massive loss of power.  heck, YOU could be if you're not using premium in the car!  But I digress.
Mitsus hot line should be in your owners manual.  Explain your frustration about your local dealer to them, and explain everything you have here.



bamkmartin -> RE: How do you get a dealer to check a TSB? (kinda long) (8/2/2007 10:28:09 AM)

2004 Endie,  I am sure that you said so, but how many miles on your vehicle?  And, did you change out the fuel filter?  This TSB sounds accurate and describes the problems that you have been having.  Point this out to the service manager.  Do they have the capability to perform this work? It sounds like they are not technically able to perform this service or they would have already done so. 

The list of maintenance items that they gave you with the price tag of 900 bucks is a deal in my neck of the woods.  But, I would try the fuel filter and the TSB work first.  Bryan

Endie 22k
Montero 156k


Manybrews -> RE: How do you get a dealer to check a TSB? (kinda long) (8/2/2007 3:41:06 PM)

there is no servicable fuel filter.




Bojib -> RE: How do you get a dealer to check a TSB? (kinda long) (8/5/2007 8:36:52 AM)

The vehicle has just over 40,000 on it.

The fuel filter was my first thought as well, just to find out that it doesn't have a serviceable filter. 

I got experience the problem more first hand yesterday.  For the most part, it was my wife who was having the problems with it, and her explaining them to me.  It had done it with me in the car before, but never to the extent she was having problems with.

So maybe now I'll be able to do a better explanation.

I had placed the scantool in the vehicle, so that I would have it available just in case, so I could see what was happening on it during the times it messed up.  I haven't really sit and went through all the data bit by bit just yet, but can explain what I seen while on the road.

So first off, when it happens, it just dies out, like you aren't giving it gas or anything.  Then picks back up, spits and splutters a bit, then takes back off.  Doesn't backfire or anything.  It seems to only want to do it after things are good and hot, which is something I had noticed earlier.  The hotter the day it is, the more it seems to want to act up.  When we would start up a hill, it would start it, or after sitting in a parking lot and litting things get good and warm, it wouldn't hardly want to take off.  All a person has to do is turn it off, and back on, and it starts running good for a while, at least until the next hill, and it's all hills around here so it's a problem.

On the scan tool I would notice that on the O2 sensors, the short term fuel trim numbers were going crazy just before problem would start.  They would either trim to 0.0 and stay, or shoot up to 25 and stay.  Those aren't the voltages, just the trim numbers it gives, in a percentage.  Anyway, the point being, that it would either go flat out to 0.0 or 25 during the problem, indicating a problem somewhere there.  The voltages however, would be in a normal range and not be doing anything crazy.  So, I can't tell if that is the computer coming up with a problem, or the O2 sensors.  It seems to be more the computer coming up with it than the sensors.

Today though, I'll be able to go out, reset the computer with the scan tool, after everything has had a chance to cool off, and it'll probably be a week and half or two weeks before the problem strikes again.

We don't live close enough to the dealership to take it in every time it has a blip or bobble, it's more than an hours drive away, highway driving.  So, we have to kind of work on it some here at home.  It's just not much of an option to go over there all the time, and have them want to perform maintenance on it, when we need it fixed first.  As good as a deal as we might get for $900 on those maintenance items, we can do better are a more reliable mechanic closer to home.  Even he is starting to think computer problems himself, he's already checked everything else that would indicate the conditions given by the codes he pulled, and run out of ideas.  Well, not run out of ideas, but would like to see the dealer update the software before he proceeds any farther into some big money repairs that may or may not fix anything.

Manybrews -> RE: How do you get a dealer to check a TSB? (kinda long) (8/7/2007 5:59:45 PM)

have you checked your airflow meter as I recommended earlier?  Aftermarket filters have been known to be cheap and "collapse" into the filter housing, causing all sorts of running issues.

otherwise, there are no common failures of anything like that on endeavors.  The ONLY thing Ive ever replaced (and it was causing a constant, obvious problem) was an airflow meter itself.

Bojib -> RE: How do you get a dealer to check a TSB? (kinda long) (8/7/2007 8:22:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Manybrews

have you checked your airflow meter as I recommended earlier?  Aftermarket filters have been known to be cheap and "collapse" into the filter housing, causing all sorts of running issues.


I actually forgot to mention that I did check that.  I took the air filter out and checked to make sure nothing crazy was happening.  Actually took the sensor itself out and checked to see if it had gotten dirty or anything, and it was clean as could be.  Made sure the clamps on the rest of the intake were tight and secure, not letting any air in.  I watched the data it was reading on the scantool, and it was all according to spec from the info I got off alldatadiy.com.

I'm pretty sure, it's safe to say now, that it only happens when it is hot.  I don't mean that just the engine is hot, but that it is hot outside.  The hotter the weather, the more it does it.  It's kinda one of those weird head scratching things.  It about has to be some sensor on it getting hot, and causing all sorts of havoc, but there has yet to be a definit code on any one sensor, just random things.

  

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